Category: Faith

The Macro and Micro Plan: Free Will vs Predestination

There is a Macro Plan and a Micro Plan and both work together as one:

  • The Macro Plan is the overarching world-wide plan of God which includes things like nations fighting nations, kingdoms, spiritual warfare, weather disasters, armies, domination of one religion over the other, etc. Events of the Macro Plan not only have been prophesied in the Bible but every single one has come to pass and there is not one thing that a man can do in his power to stop the Macro Plan from completing
  • The Micro Plan is the intricate meandering journey of our life which starts with birth and ends in death. We make small decisions which affect the course of our life. For example we choose to buy a business and the plan fails – even though it seems like it shouldn’t have – which leads to brokenness and depression. Yet because of the brokenness and depression we call out to God for help and our lives start going yet a different direction. We are sure that failure was designed to crush us yet we discover, in hindsight the result of the horrible event was something beautiful. The heat from the fire produced pure gold. The pressure from the weight of the burden created valuable diamonds. Although it would appear outwardly that free will has been removed, it is not so. It is in fact free will which brings both the Macro and the Micro Plans to their ultimate fulfillment.

Imagine for a moment observing an ant hill from above. You are planning to stick a shovel under that hill and relocate it (or worse), but watching the ants for a minute shows that they remain quite focused on their work and their lives. Yet, standing above that ant hill is someone who knows more accurately how their future is going to unfold. But they still choose to carry that heavy load up the hill and down again in utter futility.

Imagine again that you walk over a few steps and notice that a few ants have begun to build their home and foundation – a brand new ant hill – in the middle of the gravel road, in a tire track in the road just an arms length in front of the truck that made it. The truck is facing forward and it is impossible for that truck to miss the ant hill when it starts moving. Because you love ants, you grab a big stick and every so gently scrape the ant hill out of the way of the tire. From the ants perspective, God has crushed them and ruined their lives. But we know the truth because we see more than their Micro Plan and have a much better understanding than those little ants. We see the Macro Plan and understand it. We made this Macro Plan.

Also, it is impossible to deny that the Micro Plan of our individual lives intertwine intimately with the Micro Plans of others. How else can we explain these people who pop in and out of our lives? It is undeniable that some seem to be there just to ruin our lives while others are like a life line of encouragement of hope. It is much like how two ants might meet on the way back to their ant hills one day. They were busy doing their busy work but then this random ant from another place and colony pops into their life; sometimes to attack and bite, other times to help carry the load.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. (Romans 8:28)

It does not say ‘all good things’, but it says ‘all things’ which means both bad things and good things (and neutral things).

A wise man once said that predestination and free will is like this analogy:

A man walks towards the gates of heaven and written on the gate says “Knock and it shall be opened” and then after walking in and looking back at the gate it said on the other side “Predestined before the foundation of the world”

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The Church and God’s Will: G2M or MITM?

Historical Truth 1 – Old Testament G2M

A good while back the Israelites had neither kings, nor judges.  This was God’s will.  He set it up this way.  They followed God directly in cooperation with Moses. The cloud moved, they moved.  The role of Moses was not one of ‘king’, nor leader, but perhaps if you had to slap a title on him it would be ‘prophet’ – delivering God’s messages as an obedient mail man.  He was a normal man, not without sin.  It was not Moses who brought them out of Egypt, it was God – and God made sure this point wouldn’t be confused by means of wild and terrible acts against their oppressors.  This relationship, was God-to-Man (or G2M for the sake of creating an acronym).  He was a pillar of smoke during the day and a pillar of fire by night.  God said move left, and the people moved left.  God said move right, and the people moved right.  God said “jump” and the people said “how high?” – kind of.

However, when Moses went to the mountain to speak to God, he stopped to tie his shoe and took a bit longer than expected and the people, losing their G2M mouthpiece for longer than they wanted, ended up making a golden calf to worship – a heinous and adulterous breach in their relationship with God.  It proved that having a man-in-the-middle (MITM) was an unnatural relationship and doomed to fail.

Following Moses,  the Israelites set up more leaders (kings/ judges) because they preferred a MITM relationship rather than G2M.  The end result of this choice was a total degradation and ultimately the complete abandonment of the God who delivered them.

There was a restoration, of sorts, in Nehemiah but it was never as G2M as it was with Moses.  There was always a MITM.

Historical Truth 2 – New Testament G2M
The book of Acts was not only a restoration of this G2M relationship, but the fullness thereof where God’s own Spirit was poured into man and ‘the people’ went wherever God’s Spirit instructed.  Jesus had ripped the veil, the holy place of God was accessible to all men, and the MITM relationship was fully, officially, and legally ended.  God had taken up residence inside his newly restored earthly tabernacle – the body of believers.

As you read the book of Acts, you see that they acted as one body, and did acts of God on the earth – without priests, pastors, kings, or judges. Everyone was G2M when the Spirit poured out on the believers in Acts 2, but at some point, it went MITM and then the church went bad – real bad.

My Opinion (Read at Own Risk)

MITM is not the will of God, nor can anyone spiritually grow in this secular, man-made environment. It is a recipe for stunted spiritual growth at best, but spiritual degradation at worst (I’ve seen this too much to track it).

I reason that if you were to remove the Pastor, the Priest, or the (insert your one-man-show church position) that many of the churches would cease to prevail at that moment. They would either go to another establishment that had a strong leader, or they would leave the church completely.

But it’s happening anyway.

People are tired of hearing ‘about God’.  They want to know God, or not bother.

And thank God!

Imagine going every week to a travel agency where they pumped up a trip to a nice resort.  They showed you nice pictures, they showed videos, they walked you through slide presentations, they showed how awesome it was in this place. You went week after week diligently because you badly wanted to go.  But no one showed you how to go.  How horrible would that be?  How long would you keep going to torture yourself?  The reality never happens.

Same deal in many churches.  How long will go you and hear about transformed lives: miracles, signs, wonders, love, joy, giving, dying to self, blah, blah, blah, and blah… but not get a chance to live it? The reality never happens.

But worse than all of this is the fact that most sincere believers I know just want to *know God*.  We want God to be the ruler of our hearts and lives.  We want to be holy, pure, and with a clean conscience before God and man.  We want to walk with Him, talk with Him and experience the fullness of His plan for our life.  We want to love God and love others – but all we have is a well-composed 3-point sermon (and some coffee and cookies afterwards for ‘fellowship’).

Thank God the people are tiring of it because God was tired of it the day it started.

It’s time for a G2M relationship.

I’m done with MITM.

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Flat Earth vs Globe Earth: Why it Should Matter to Christians

You may have read my more general post called Flat Earth vs. Globe Earth and Why it Matters to You

This was a more generic discussion of the topic focusing on some of the challenges one faces when starting down the journey – Bible believer or not.

I would like to now address a more specific matter: Why the Flat Earth Should Matter to Bible Believing Christians.

I used the word ‘should’ for a very specific reason: there are many, many things in the Bible that form answers to the question “Who am I?”  Does the question ‘Who am I?” matter to you?  If not, there’s an exit at the back of the hall with the sign ‘Refiners Fire’ above the door.  Go there and then come back when you’re done.  You need some more time in the flames and disappointments of life, apparently.  For the rest of us who have already figured out that there must be more to life than the duplication of cells on a petri dish, let’s continue.

I have heard the following statements from well-meaning believers around town when I asked them to consider the flat earth:

  • It’s not a priority topic like salvation through Jesus
  • The Bible is not meant to be a scientific book
  • It doesn’t affect my faith in God so it’s not a priority for me

Does the answer to the question ‘who am I?’ matter?  It matters more than life itself.  Some people will cross continents, jump out of planes (with parachutes), do wild and death-dancing drugs, get married more than once because the one they married wasn’t their ‘soul mate’, etc, etc.  Some will even, tragically, kill themselves should they not in time find the answer to the question.

Indeed the answer to the question is more important than life itself.  We are here for a short time and what we do here is dictated by who we are.  If you think you are a meaningless piece of randomness floating through space just lucky enough to have ended up on the one floating ball with life on it, you will probably view the world a certain way and behave in accordance with those beliefs.  On the other hand if you believe that the earth is a flat stage and the entire cosmos  with the sun and moon was designed for you, spins around you, and was designed for you, you might act in yet a different way.  If you thought you were the afterthought of a ballot box shook up and thankfully chosen to not not exist, you might act one way.  However, if you thought that a Great Composer composed your life as a dramatic symphony for you, or an Amazing Artist painted this world as a piece of artwork for you and with only you in mind, you might think and act differently.

The answer to ‘Who am I?” is more important than life itself for if you don’t know who you are and why you are here – how then can you live at all?

So who are you anyway?

Have you heard both versions of the story, or have you only heard the story of your random nothingness?

What story are you going to believe when neither can be proven in a petri dish?

Here is a bullet point list of what I believe about who I am, by the grace of God, thanks to the faith He has given me:

  • there was a creative God of love who always was
  • at some point in eternity past, He sovereignly decided to create a place called earth
  • the purpose of God’s creation was to create a home for a new creation called humans with whom God Himself will commune and share His love
  • With amazing glory (see the cosmos), with unspeakable creativity (see how many variations of bees there are as a starter), and with great power (see Genesis 1) He, with His own matter-generating words of wisdom and power, spoke our earth into existence.
  • in Genesis and many other places throughout the Bible this place is described as an immovable flat plane on a solid foundation upon which lie the depths of the oceans and the breadth of the land and over which the stars, moon and sun circle and where a solid firmament exists – far above us and separating us from the waters above.
  • God crafted us with his hands, shaped us into His own image, and placed us at the pinnacle of His creation and then breathed His very life into us separating us from all other creation
  • God made us the focal point of His everything – the centre of His attention – the apple of His eye
  • This whole life is simply a stage upon which we act out the bitter-sweet scenes on our way to eventual and complete redemption

But there are those who cannot believe what I believe.  I don’t have the answers as to why, other than they have not received the faith to believe.  I now find anything that conflicts with the above set of beliefs to defy logic and the very heart that is found within me.  It goes against everything my intuition, conscience and even mind is able to tolerate.

And so this topic of the flat earth and cosmology matters greatly as it speaks clear answers to the question “Who am I?”

Our world has failed us time and time again.

The lure of ‘scientism’ and their wild and spiritual faith-based theories has done nothing more than to leave us empty and thirsting for the truth.  The more and more we thirst, the more and more they craft up theories to leave us more thirsty.

I have found the answer to who I am and now my life is incredible, and (bonus) my faith in my God of the Bible has reached levels I have not yet experienced.

I hope and pray that you will gaze into the cosmos and ask the question again:

“Who am I?”

 

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Flat Earth: The Firmament, Cosmoloy, Space, and the Bible

As I continue down this most exciting journey of cosmology and figuring out how things really work out there, I am continually pulled back to the truth of the Bible on this topic.  Every time someone presents a view that opposes the Biblical position on cosmology, it starts to fall apart, or does not sufficiently convince me to move away.  Do I have any biases?  Yes, indeed. I believe that the Bible is true.  In times past I used to somewhat suppress certain scriptures to help me cope in a world that opposed them and presented weird options, but as I age, I realize this is absolutely the wrong approach and that I can confidently continue to stand on the Bible in every aspect of my life: spiritually, physically, scientifically, etc.

There are two camps of Bible believers, I have noticed: the first camp says ‘you don’t have to think about this stuff, just believe, brother” whilst the other camp (of which I’m obviously part) says “Don’t just believe it but inquisitively question and marvel at how all this works”.  An example to demonstrate the two camps would be the scripture where Jesus walks on water.  The first camp would say ‘Don’t think, just believe’ whereas I would say “Believe, then marvel at the omnipotent God who dominated the physical realm, then consider, for pure interests sake, what natural/physical laws or norms were trampled for this miracle to occur!”  The more I investigate what God has done, the more I marvel.

And with that background, let’s continue.

Today I had a eureka moment while I was meditating on Genesis 1.  I’m not entirely sure how I have seen so many videos about this, read these verses countless times, and yet never quite ‘seen’ it, but that seems to to be how the Word of God works.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. (Genesis 1:6-7)

The key is the word firmament so first click this link here to study this word from the original language before continuing.  Now, take a minute (promise it doesn’t take much more) before reading my comments and really visualize what is happening here.

Here’s what I see happening, and feel free to correct me in the comments below as usual, if I’m off base:

  • There is at the start a unified mass of water
  • Then, a firm, supportive, strong firmament is created and inserted somewhere in the middle of this mass of water
  • The firmament is raised way up thereby dividing the waters below from those above the firmament thereby leaving a vast space in between being the space in which we live and our atmosphere (or atmos-dome if you don’t like the round earth vocab)

A while back I stumbled across what I thought was one of the funniest things ever – some dude out there actually thought that there was water up where space was purported to be.  Water? In space? Give me a break!

But now I truly have to consider this theory based on the above.

Then, as it would be, I stumbled across something incredibly relevant to this topic.  A ‘star in a jar’.  Take a moment, and while watching this video, consider how many interesting connections can be made to the scriptures:

I just happened to be in Matthew chapter 1 on the same day as Genesis 1 (God bless those Bible-in-a-year programs!) and the wise men leave Herod and behold a star was there to lead them.  Was this a new star?  Sure seems to be.  But how could that be?  Based on the star in a jar, it would take nothing more than concentrated sound on a bubble in water to provide this convenient beacon of hope.

But the moment I considered this I asked another question: What exactly is the purpose of the stars?  I noticed in this scripture the purpose of that star was to guide the wise men to the birth place of Jesus.  But what about the rest? The answer is found here:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. (Genesis 1: 14-18)

The whole Bible is about *purpose*.  Everything has a purpose: life, death, joy, pain, suffering, sickness, marriage, child birth, blah, blah and blah.  Although our minds aren’t able to understand the fullness of the purpose, there is a purpose, no doubt.  With the stars, moon, and sun, however, he didn’t leave anything to the imagination.  He told us straight up why he made them and here is the bullet list:

  • to divide the day from the night “Oh look, stars. It’s night time. Cool.”
  • for signs: a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.:—mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token. “Look! A star leading us to the birthplace of Jesus!” or “Woah.  Look at the stars… man.  There MUST be a God!”
  • for seasons: appointed place, appointed time, etc “Look at the stars.  It must be June.”
  • for days: a 24 hour day, a period of time, a measurement of time, etc “Hey, it’s 4pm.”
  • for years: a measurement of time, a year. “I am 37 years old now.”

And so the stars in general, and the star the wise men saw, fulfilled and continue to fulfil their purpose for which they were intended.

Some believers responded to my proposal that the firmament may still be there with water above it, by saying that the firmament was destroyed at the point of Noah’s flood and that’s where the water came from (when the whole dome collapsed). But from my understanding and study, the Bible didn’t say that it was ‘destroyed’.  It said the ‘windows of heaven were opened and the fountains of the deep’.  It’s an assumption to believe it was fully destroyed versus a hole (literally translated to a ‘window’) opening in parts and letting the waters from above through into the space where we are below the firmament.

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11)

The word ‘window’ above means “lattice, window, sluice” and from my understanding, windows were designed to be opened and closed so it’s a much stronger argument to believe that the firmament is still there and the windows were simply opened and closed at some point.

Let’s look at Genesis 1:14-18 again:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. (Genesis 1: 14-18)

I have only one point of study left that I need to somehow find the answer to.  In English the above is translated to ‘in’ the firmament.  However, when I looked up the original there is no translation for the preposition ‘in’.

So could the physical location of the stars, moon and sun be below or above the firmament (the stars)? Possibly.  I currently tend to favour the position that all of it sits either *in* in the firmament or behind it.

Let’s keep the journey going, shall we?

 

Keywords: Space, Stars, Moon, Sun, cosmology, firmament, flood, canopy, windows of heaven, star in a jar, creation, Genesis, Bible

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Sinners Sin: Dealing With Disappointment in Myself and Others

“What do you expect? Sinners sin.” – Unnamed Pastor, 2001

Struggling with disappointment in others and in myself seems to be a never-ending theme in my life. Deep in my heart and in my mind has always been the very keen awareness that there does exist somewhere perfection.

The concept of perfection is set deep in all of our consciousness. We all know things were supposed to be perfect but they aren’t. Some people seem to be able to cope better in this imperfect world whereas people like myself take imperfection very personally (and sometimes hard).

In myself, I have a strong desire to live in a very perfect and systematized world where I go to the cupboard, open it, and find exactly what I need and instantly because it’s perfectly organized. When I leave the cupboard, it should close by itself because why would a cupboard that doesn’t close itself even exist in a perfect world? It simply wouldn’t. I desire also that the food items in the fridge would be in a perfect rotation (like what you would have in a retail environment) so that old food moves to the front so that food wastage is reduced to zero. My alarm would always work perfectly and I would always be up before 4am so that I could maximize the day – reading my Bible and spending time in prayer so that I would then have the strength to go to my wife and kids, and love them with all that I have – encouraging them and being a great inspiration to them.

I would then start my day and I would call people, leave them a message of value, and they would call me back when they got my message. The suppliers that I work with would supply everything on time and the communication would always be predictable. Inside the company, everyone would be on the same page and things would never have to be repeated twice because even children don’t require that kind of babysitting usually. One email sent would conclude the matter and I could move on. Balls would not get dropped because everyone else also wants a perfect world, surely. Surely it’s not just me who wants a perfect world and a world without fights and tension.

In all facets of life, when something is communicated transparently and clearly such as ‘this is very important to me’ then no person would throw that aside and do exactly what would upset or hurt me because I have clearly explained to them how to not upset or hurt me.  I made it impossible for them to hurt me…

Yet everything and everyone is broken.

Broken, broken, broken.

Imperfect, screwed up and lost.

Everything.

Everyone.

Including me.

Yes. Including me – as much as I despise the thought of being ‘one of them’.

How can I possibly live like this?

How can I go on?

How can I not quit and get into despair and depression?

Everything is so, so broken.

Thankfully, there is hope and with this hope, I write the rest of this really to encourage myself. I hope that as I write this next part that someone else also benefits from what I believe will be deep revelation.

You can (and should) read about how there was a time when humans walked in the earth in perfection. They didn’t fight, they walked in the cool of the day with God and they had dominion over nature. Things were perfect.

But all men are sinners, thanks to Adam/Eve making a poor life choice.  Here is exactly how bad it is.  Read it.  Soak it in.  Really get a grasp on this reality:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. … For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:10-18, 23)

And so we have a pre-programmed hunger for that Garden of Eden perfection, yet we live in broken vessels full of wickedness. Here is how we live now:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)

We *know* God is out there.  And we *know* He is perfect.  His creation all around it *proves* it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Even our own minds have gone dark:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Rom 1:21)

And so this life remains a balance between grace and longing. We long to be with our Creator in perfect perfection forever, yet we need His grace to get there. Once we have this grace we can then possibly have the grace required to deal with others around us. Once we realize this incredible brokenness and weakness we are living in, it’s very difficult to expect others to be perfect. In fact, you would be downright surprised when they get anything right, or do anything good.

I’ll never forget this one time when I approached a pastor to vent my incredible disappointment towards someone. He asked me “Is he a believer?” I replied “No.” He then said the most simple thing that has helped me ever since when he replied back “Sinners sin. That’s what they do.”

He was perfectly right.  Our very nature is full to the brim of sin. Our only desire is wickedness and selfishness and our programming code is so messed up that all we know to do is wickedness.

Lately, I have decided to make this whole thing much more simple for myself. When dealing with myself and all the disappointments I have in myself, I’m going to remind myself that I’m not perfect, and that although it’s ok to long for perfection, it’s not ok to expect it on earth. I’m also going to spend more time asking God to totally change my nature. I know that it is a biblical promise for this change, and I need it real bad. The more that God changes my nature to be like him, the more grace I will have towards myself and others.  Here is the promise onto which I firmly grasp:

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Until then, I’m going to simply one step further. I’m going to look at every person, no matter who they are and their background or current status in the world and say:

“Look at this poor, broken vessel. How much God loves this person and how much God wants to start the work of transformation him/her! But this person is broken and unable to do even the things they want to do. They, like me, fail themselves daily and others. When they fail you or disappoint you, never forget they are broken. God, help me to love them just as they are and help me, a broken vessel, deal with them the best I can with your strength.”

A to the MEN!

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Flat Earth: Why I Started Down This Path

(Audio Version at the bottom if you no like reading)

“I am a scientist and if I can’t back up a scientific fact with scripture, I question it’s validity” – Caroline Leaf

That quote just about sums it up.  No matter what way you slice it, if you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, you will have to travel down this path with me because the Bible teaches a flat earth.

My position is simple in life these days.  My default position is this:

  • God is true
  • All men are liars

Now that we have that out of the way, here is the expanded list:

  • The Word of God is true
  • The Bible is the Word of God
  • The Bible describes the earth as geo-centric, not heliocentric
  • The Bible talks about the world as being an enemy of God
  • If the world is against God, then all of the worldly institutions that are in the business of teaching are also against God.
  • Public education is ‘in the world’ (and it has also infiltrated the church, of course, and all of its institutions).  Funny side note: it’s very funny to me that people complained when the Lord’s prayer was removed from school.  I was more shocked it was ever there!
  • The Bible teaches of a ‘great deception’ that will come at the end of the world where the whole world, and the weak Christians, will be deceived by the anti-christ in some kind of fraudulent (yet spectacular) world-wide show of pseudo-spirituality that looks somewhat divine.

And so that pretty much sums it up.  I have no basis in the Bible to believe anything that comes from these institutions, other than directly observable evidence.

I also have every good reason under the sun to disbelieve every foundational believe system they use to teach anything that in any wise contradicts the solid Word of God.  Some examples of these systems that I would question by default would be:

  • geologic time measurements
  • gravity
  • anything related to a heliocentric model of the earth
  • etc

This does not mean that I would never believe these things, but it does mean that my default position is 100% disbelief and I will start my journey from that position.

The dialogue about the globe earth would therefore go like this:

A: The earth is round

ME: But the Bible describes the earth predominantly as flat-like so therefore I believe it’s flat until proven otherwise.

A: But what about the pictures of the round earth?  that’s first hand evidence for you.

ME: I didn’t take those pictures, nor do I trust the institutions who did. All men are liars.  It may be part of a great deception.  NASA makes a lot of money to produce photos like those.

A:  But what about my friend who went to space himself?

ME: I didn’t go with him.  I don’t know your friend well.  And where does earth end and where does space begin?  And who decided that?

A: But scientists all believe the earth is round.

ME: All of these scientists came out of the same schools which all teach the same things about the world – much like how many theology students will come out of theology school with a bunch of knowledge about the Bible.  Just because you are taught something doesn’t mean that it’s true.  All men are liars.

A: But you can just take a telescope and look!

ME: Yes, and I have.  The moon appears to be round with craters indeed.  But I don’t believe a man has parked a 1960’s Volkswagen Beetle dressed up as a space ship on it.  All men are liars.

And so the dialogue goes.

The problem is that I don’t have a lot of time to go and do a bunch of science.  This leaves me in a position where I have to believe what is right for the amount of knowledge that I have, while slowly picking away at my own research.

As for me, I will believe God at His Word and I will enjoy the earth that way – in a child-like simplicity.  I will look at the cosmos the same way that Abraham did and rejoice greatly in the beauty of God’s handiwork.

As the stars turn around this incredible stage called our life – all designed by a loving God for our enjoyment in whatever short few seconds we have left here.

In this I rejoice greatly and have much peace.

The Audio Version of this Post

 

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Biblical Church Revealed During Break from Brick and Mortar

A letter written to my friend that I felt was worthy of sharing to the world as well:


Now brace yourself for the rest since you asked!

Interestingly, about this time last year we made a decision to pull out of church-church.  It’s a long story and had nothing to do with personality conflicts or even really theology, but it started with the fact that we could not find in the Bible any justification for Christmas and Easter but instead only proof that they were both pagan rituals brought into the church.  When this was brought up it was immediately shut down.  It started to make us really wonder because those outside of the church also shut us down in the same way.  So it was observed that the unbelievers and the church were in agreement that Christmas and Easter were a good thing – and this is highly troubling if you think about it because the world should be pretty much against all things Christian (except for our good works).  Satan is the prince of this world.  So why was Satan’s folks and the church in full agreement about Easter?  Even though perfect historical facts prove them to be based in paganism?  So that was the start of my questioning about the church-church.

For me, on a personal level, and at every church I’ve attended I’ve been quite troubled by the following:

  • existence of known and habitual sinning within the body of Christ (without rebuke or correction and ultimately excommunication – which is a clear directive in the Bible)
  • a very serious lack of Bible understanding individually
  • programmatic rituals which are not bad by themselves but when coupled with the above provide a perfect framework to spiritual death within the church (a feeling of godliness without the power)
  • the fact that churches meet in buildings called ‘churches’ and people, especially Koreans, will say ‘Do you go to church?” which has an implied meaning of ‘Do you believe that Jesus is Lord and have you received him as your Savior and live your life for Him?” the two questions of which – as you well know – often have no correlation within the church-church
  • the fact that ‘churches’ provide all their financial data, and the data of their members directly to the tax authorities strictly for a worldly benefit (tax numbers and tax benefits).  See this post here as well about that.
  • the bizarre reality of how people will drive all over their city commuting to ‘churches’ when their own backyards are spiritual graveyards and are ripe for the meeting of the believers together
  • and more

In addition to the above challenges with the church-system, I have also personally and very deeply struggled with the lack of teachings about and help towards those struggling with (and yes these are all biblical sins) the following sins:

  • homosexuality
  • fornication
  • divorce
  • pornography

And you can run a few quick tests to confirm:

1. When was the last time you heard a preacher educating about how the sin of homosexuality works (spiritually) and how we are supposed to help homosexuals? Have you ever heard a preacher preaching about how we should reach out to these lost and hurting children of God?

2. When have you heard anyone preaching to/teaching a pre-married couple about the need to abstain from sexual interactions until the covenant is legal?  Have you ever heard them preach/teach that perhaps it’s not even wise to do the worldly version of dating?

3. When have you heard anyone try to stop someone in their congregation from divorcing? Although I haven’t heard of it I’m sure there is a good chance this occurs regularly, but, when have you ever heard of a pastor boldly trying to stop them from committing adultery by re-marrying?  Not ever once have I heard of a pastor doing this yet Jesus Himself said this:


Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery Luke 16:18).

4. When has anyone preached about how to help a pornography-addict, set up a course, etc?  Or have they just preached empty statistics about how many Christians are addicted to it?

You see?  A form of godliness without the power.  This was a big part of my struggle and even began to seriously bother my conscience as God opened my eyes.

A religious ritual void of the life-changing power of the Spirit is what I was seeing in so many traditional congregations around me.

In summary – a massive hypocritical lifestyle that stinks in the sight of God.

And that is just a piece of my spiritual situation.

There is another challenge I have with the church-church and that is that the pastors are doing the five-fold ministry by themselves. We have pastors who are supposed to shepherd the flock, but where are the apostles, the prophets and the evangelists?

And the proof of something being amiss in the way it’s going for the poor pastors around town is that pretty much every pastor I know is either stressed, sick, having marriage and family problems or all of the above. Seriously.  I joke not.  Yes, I’ve heard the argument that Satan is attacking them more, but I’ve started to shy away from that one over the last few years, although I don’t deny that Satan hates pastors.

The great news is that after pulling myself and the family out of the church-church for a while, and dedicating that time to home Bible studies with other couples and families and our kids, things massively started to change including, but not limited to:

  • a greater hunger for the Word of God
  • a greater hunger for and revelation of truth in general (ie. Christmas, Easter, flat earth versus globe earth, evolution vs creation, satanic influence in the school system, etc, etc, etc).
  • a much better understanding of the world around me such as world events
  • a much closer relationship with my direct family
  • an improved relationship with the unsaved members of my family and their circle
  • an increased excitement towards the things of God including holiness, righteousness, wisdom, hard work, diligence, etc, etc)
  • an increased confidence that God is with us individually, inside of us
  • an increased confidence that God is capable Himself, without the church-church to sustain our very life and stamp His seal of approval on me directly with His Spirit
  • an increased hunger to find others who are like-minded and hungry for God
  • an increased intimacy with the brothers and sisters we have found who love the Lord in a similar way
  • an increased desire to do the will of God instead of my own will or the will of others around me
  • more of God, less of us.

In short, we have been transformed through the experience.

We are daily seeking to build the small fellowship we have but we are not willing to compromise on the above for the vain benefit of telling someone which authorized church-church we are part of.  We find no basis in the Bible for this and so we are not going down that road again.

However, don’t misunderstand and think that we are ‘outside of the church’.  It’s quite the opposite.  We ARE the church now.  We are actually doing the stuff we see in the Bible and God is bringing (quite quickly) other believers around to share this with.

It’s good.

And hopefully something here was encouraging to your faith.

I expect that God will do a mighty thing in your life and the life of your new wife.

Be strong in the Lord and faint not.

Seek the Lord and ye shall find Him. Knock and the door shall be opened.

Blessings to you, brother!

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Flat Earth: Christian Scientific Presentation Against Flat Earth

On my continual life-long journey of hungering truth and enjoying knowledge, I continue to venture deeper into the flat earth versus globe earth discussion.  It is, by far, the most important periphereal topic because it does indeed affect your world view.  On the one side, I don’t want to be lead astray into some ostracized corner of society where people view me as a nut bar, but on the other hand, I don’t want to ‘just believe’ because my school and church told me to.  Over the years, horrible things have crept into the church and society by people just letting them happen so if someone presents a view on something (ie. homosexuality, evolution, flat earth, divorce, pornography, etc) we need to at least know our God and His Word well enough to hold a position.

And so today I decided to, instead of looking up the topic ‘flat earth’ which tends to show everyone promoting a flat earth view, I looked up more from Bible believing science people who speak on the topic.  I found this presentation by the folks at ICR and wanted to share it as well as add my commentary below it for the benefit of both sides who are seeking the truth on the matter, like myself:

Commentary

I’d like to first thank the folks at ICR for being one of the only organizations who works hard to promote the truth about God’s word and creationism.  It was thanks to the ICR folks that I came much quicker to Jesus and discarded quickly evolution and all associated and damaging world views that come with it.  I indeed praise God for this as it has tremendously helped my faith.

I also know that it would be extremely difficult to act in an unbiased way on this topic because all the scientists here have passed through the secular scientific systems of the world, played by the rules, been indoctrinated with all the world views and have come out the other side with all the neat acronyms after their names.  In this case, the show is started by making sure the listener know that Jason Lisle has no shortage of alphabet soup after his name.

I just wanted to state that I have seen more men of God have their faith killed and chilled by seminary and secular university and their teachings than by probably any other force on the planet (or disc).  My point is not to discredit completely these institutions but to point out that the soup they make you drink is the soup *they* want you to drink, not necessarily the truth.  Jesus is the truth and one day we will stand in front of Him and all this will make sense and if betting wasn’t folly I would bet that we’re all going to have a long list of things that we believed that were ‘a little off’.

So let’s have a little grace and a little fun as we explore this important topic.  Let’s not laugh each other off whether we believe in another god or that we live in a different matrix dimension, but instead continue to seek the truth and discuss it and help each other along.

My first red flag during Jason’s speech was how he jumped straight to Genesis 1:7 and pulled the correct Hebrew word ‘raqiya’ for firmament but then immediately said “It never says or implies a solid”  Immediately I looked it up to find that, indeed it *does* imply it could be a solid.  Read the word firmament yourself (which you should always do).  I mean.. as soon as he boldly declared it had no connection to solid he made my brain turn on and I started thinking about the english etymology of the word FIRMament.  So I looked up firmament and lo and behold it comes from firm which is just loaded with feelings of solidity.  So let’s not be so quick to disolve the conversation of the possibility that God made this firmament firm.

The next thing that Jason said that jumped out at me when they were discussing the ends of the earth and the four corners of the earth.  You can read my very pro flat earth article here with a bunch of scriptures if you want but remember that I too am just a man working through this.  Anyway, although I agree in general with the interpretation that the four corners and the ends of the earth could and should mean ‘everywhere’ it is not to be translated as the cardinal directions of north, east, south, and west.  Jason boldly says that it should be interpreted that way but those directions were well known then as he points out later in the show, so they could have done it then.  God could be implying a literal four corners of the earth here if He wants so let’s not put words in His mouth. But what bothered me more, I think, was how Jason quite strongly ‘recommended’ that believers ‘not build their theology on the book of Revelation but instead build it on the rest of the Bible’.  Last time I checked, every word in the Bible was the inspired Word of God and worth building our theology on.  Unfortunately this statement didn’t help.  I understand he was saying ‘do the rest of the Bible first and then you might understand Revelation’ but it didn’t come across as good advice.  Sorry, bro.

I also thought it was quite humourous how Jason tried to explain the ‘ends of the earth’ (16m20s) as a location on a globe to which you could circle and come back to.  Here he conveniently did not use hebrew or greek to discuss this word ‘ends’.  Please look it up HERE while reading this next part.   So Jason explains the ‘ends’ of the earth here as ‘antipodes‘ yet nowhere at all in the original Hebrew do I get any form of interpretation like that.  What I read (and read it yourself) is a clear meaning of ‘end’ or ‘border’ or ‘extremity’ – something that comes to a dead stop, if you will.  I must say here that these ‘ends of the earth’ scriptures do not do very well on a globe model and Jason’s nebulous description of what it ‘could’ mean on a globe earth (assuming it is a globe is his position, don’t forget) is quite a leap away from the Word.

By far one of the most important scriptures in the Biblical flat earth discussion is Isaiah 22:14

22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

I thought what would be the best way to deal with this scripture is take a young person’s Bible translation, read it to a 7 year old (my daughter) and see what she draws.  My guess is that that is what God is trying to say.  Let’s run the test:

 

(image coming as soon as complete)

 

The other topic that Jason discussed was at 18m 30s about Job 26.10

He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

In this example he says it confirms the ‘terminator‘ which science has proven.  Jason says that this scripture is the ‘killer’ of the flat earth Bible discussion.  No more need to discuss it because, as he says, ‘there is no other way to explain it’.

Interestingly a few folks have tried. Unfortunately this video doesn’t actually explain what’s going on so it took me a while to get it plus it takes a while to get to the point.  Skip ahead to 1m 18s in this video and before watching what you are looking for is ‘the terminator’ as described above link. What we should be able to see is a clear line breaking the dark from the light where the sun shoots over the curvature of the earth.  However, from this video and what our eyes see every day, what seems more observable is the effect of the headlights of a car getting closer and closer to the location.  As you’ll note on the left side it’s quite bright (closer to the headlights) but as the power of the light source weakens, you see the light bleed into darkness (not a line) in the same way that you would see car headlights do this if you were looking down on them from a high elevation:

I’m sure there are a few ways to debunk what I just said but my point here is just that my eyes still show that a small and close sun moving towards us is very possible.

Plus, what about all the Bible verses that say they move?  Shall we just not talk about those ones like Jason didn’t talk about them? Kind of quietly slide them under a mat?  Or perhaps just call them ‘poetic language’ as many ‘scientists’ do.  I’m just not that willing to hand over the Word of God completely to scientists like that so I will continue to work through this topic:

  • Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. (Psalm 19:4-6) (Read expanded comments on this scripture here)
  • The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. (Ecclesiastes 1:5)
  • Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. (Joshua 10:12-13)
  • The sun [and] moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, [and] at the shining of thy glittering spear. (Habakkuk 3:11)

Jason also says in his presentation that the different locations of the stars in the sky don’t work on a flat earth model but that was just funny.  They believe the universe and heavenly bodies are in motion around the earth.  That’s all.  Works perfectly fine so please don’t say that the movement of stars don’t work on a flat earth model, they work even better in my opinion.

Lunar eclipse.

This one still currently has me.  I need to do further research.  Seems to favour globe earth.

Parallax.

I need more time on this one.  It seems to me that parallax would have no meaning if the tree (his example) was moving. ha.  So parallax only works if you are sure the object (in this case the star) is stationary relative to us (I think) but again, I’m not strong on this topic.

Time zones

This one is quite funny too.  Jason boldly declares that time zones don’t work on a flat earth.  Why not?  All we are talking about here is when the sun is shining light on us and when it stops and at what times. Both models work perfectly well with time zones.  I’m always a bit surprised that globalists use time zones as some kind of proof.  Maybe I’m missing their point?

Importing ideas from other cultures to interpretation of Bible

I am in full agreement with Jason here. I would also strongly recommend not going to the surrounding cultures of the Israelites or their teachings/education to try to understand the Bible.  That’s a bad idea.  They were lost and without God so one could assume their understandings of the world around them to be ‘lost’.  Amen to that one, brother.

However… I would also add, Jason, that you may have been influenced by the gods of science in your own understanding and world view and you also should be very careful about what you have been taught in school and how it has affected your world view.  Perhaps you’ve picked up a few bad ideas along the way?  I know I have…

As a final note, I was very disappointed with 43m 25s when the interviewer asks Jason ‘what would you say to a brother who is getting into the ‘flat earth movement’.  His response was:

  • you aren’t being faithful to the word of God or the interpretation
  • flat earthers think they are on the moral high ground
  • I would then teach them about hermeneutics
  • then I would teach them about science
  • the Bible ‘just doesn’t teach a flat earth’

As given above, the Bible clearly teaches a moving sun and moon and a stationary earth.  For Jason to boldly call a Bible reader ‘unfaithful to the Word of God’ for reading as the Word of God is quite disappointing.  I would expect advice something along these lines:

  • I’m a man, all scientists are men and all have fallen short
  • the mind is a deceiving thing and even the heart of man
  • only God can be trusted and His Word (he says this but his position here doesn’t match it)
  • If you seek the truth God will show you because Jesus *is* truth.
  • I personally believe you are caught in a big delusion and I’ll work through it with you
  • Let’s figure out the truth together

I mean, it’s just a more productive way to dialogue and win hearts, too, if you look at it that way.  Even though Mormons are fully deceived, I don’t start my conversation with ‘You are fully deceived and lost’.

And so I will continue down my journey towards the truth.

If nothing else, the process of thinking about this is important so we know who we are in relation to God.

Flat Earth and the Bible: Did Jesus Talk About Time Zones?

Let us continue our journey towards truth – whether hard or easy.

Did Jesus clearly ‘know about time zones’ and ‘talk about time zones’?   Let’s take a look at the Bible in Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:33-36 (pasted at the bottom for your convenience):

The argument against the flat earth model with these scriptures is that Jesus is ‘clearly talking about time zones’  which therefore implies that Jesus knew about time zones and therefore was heliocentric in his cosmology (that was a partial joke). I believe this argument is very weak and assumes on scripture that isn’t there because Jesus did not say ‘time zones’ or refer to them at all. The bullet points of what he is saying in these scriptures are:

  • some people will be in the middle of what they are doing (sleeping, working, whatever) when it happens
  • it is a unified event at one point in time
  • no one knows the day or the hour
  • In Matthew it doesn’t specify daylight or dark hours but calls it ‘day’ which has both light and dark hours in a 24 hour day
  • In Luke it specifies both day (Luke 17:30) and then a few verses later night (verse 34)

Instead of assuming that God is talking about a globe earth time zone it would be better to assume only what is written which is that the coming of Jesus will occur while people are going about their daily lives.

In addition, when these scriptures were presented to a few people unbiased on the helio/geocentric models)  around me as ‘proof for a time zone globe earth’ they immediately said “Well how do they know that the women aren’t grinding at the mill on a night shift?”

The answer is ‘we don’t’ and ‘they could have been’.

Because Jesus isn’t focused on cosmology in these scriptures but instead warning us to be ready wherever we are and in the middle of whatever we are doing.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Plus, these scriptures work just fine on both a globe earth and a flat earth model. In the globe earth it’s a time zone but on the flat earth the sun has simply moved away so it’s dark on one part and light on the other.

 

 

Matthew 24:36-42

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 17:33-36

Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

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The Bible and Our Very Flat Earth

Edit 2:

Edit 1: July 14, 2016: Added section ‘The Visible Second Coming of Christ” at bottom.  Coming next: General biblical cosmology – What does the Bible say about the rest of the universe?

First Publication: July 2016


While I continue my journey down the flat earth versus globe earth investigation, it has become apparent a need to pull together a simple list of any scriptures in the Bible that seem to support a flat earth model and, should I find any, include those that support a globe earth model. To give credit where credit is due, many of the foundational scriptures of this post come from this video.

Why Bother Exploring This at All?

Truth.  Does truth matter?

  • Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (John 17:17)
  • [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)
  • For thy mercy [is] great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds. (Psalm 57:10)
  •  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
  •  He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him. (Proverbs 18:13)
  • One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)
  • All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (1 Timothy 3:16)
  • God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:4)

The last scripture “Let God be true, but every man a liar” needs to be our modus operandi (M.O.) for receiving any information.  This is the information generation and therefore the greater the need for better filters.  One needs to take the position that every word of man is a lie and that every word from God is true.  Assume the world is lying and be surprised when it is not.  After all, Satan is the father of lies.

Let all men be liars.  Let God be true.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

If you love the truth and seek it, and filter everything through the assumption that everything you were ever taught other than God’s word may very well be giant pile of steaming something, then you are in a good position to find the truth and read your Bible in a new and exciting way!

The Implications – Why the Lie?

The very moment you start to explore even the possibility that the earth may be flat, you simultaneously must also ask yourself, “Self: why the lie?”

The Globe Earth Model Seems to Be a Direct Attack on God’s Word

Genesis shows that the earth was created first (1:1), then vegetation (1:11) and then, after the earth and vegetation were already there, God brings forth the sun and moon (1:14) – therefore members of mainstream modern ‘science’ present a direct and polar opposite attack on God’s word.  This should come as no surprise because evolution, also presented by the same group, constitutes a direct attack on the very creation and image of man as the Lord says clearly that He made us in His image (1:26), not as a byproduct of random monkey business.

The Great Deception

Although there isn’t a lot of time to expound on this one, there are several scriptures in the Bible that seem to indicate that ‘space’ and ‘asteroids’ and ‘green aliens’ will form part of the end time shenanigans of the anti-Christ and the final deception.  His ‘lying wonders’ will deceive even the elect and this never-preached, never-read and never discussed scripture has always seemed a little too close to the popular presentation of ‘aliens’ – which are clearly demonic in nature:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Revelations 16:13-14)

Something is definitely ‘up’ with aliens and world-wide deception…

Money and Power

One simple thing that people forget is that organizations like NASA, and all those that are connected to it, make a lot of money.  They literally suck the money out of taxpayer jeans without account.  For what?  A few rockets fired up every few years?  Imagine if that money was dispersed to the needy of the earth for food, clean water, shelter and clothing?  Instead there is a money train that needs to keep chugging along.  And there are powerful people who want this globe earth model to continue.  It helps the average person feel very small and powerless and for those on top, who know the truth, it helps them feel much more powerful than they really are.

Why this Matters

If the above didn’t, of its own accord, pull your heart strings and stir inside of you a certain feeling of a concern that you may be already be deeply deceived, and if you need further help seeing why this topic matters, we now present the following list of reasons:

  • All of our astronomical teachings collapse
  • Atheism collapses
  • Humanism collapses
  • NASA and space exploration collapse and therefore must be a scam
  • Aliens (at least their origin and nature) collapse
  • Airlines and telecoms must be involved
  • Hollywood and popular music are involved
  • etc

But God’s word remains.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20)

Keep in mind as you explore this topic that a very large chunk of science is based on faith, not fact.  A theory is just a theory.  When ‘theory’ is taught as ‘fact’ we need to get very involved and concerned.  Evolution is just such an example.  And so it must be noted that scientists are not ‘unbelievers’ as they often claim.  Instead, they absolutely believe – but just not the words of the Bible.  They have faith in other things and other ways.  They indeed have their own gods and faith.

Scientists also have a long history of lying to the world.  Money always talks.  If the margarine producers of the world need to sell more margarine, they will find the right scientists to find the right data to present to the world in the right way.  Then when the butter producers realize their sales have plummeted because of this new and convenient ‘scientific data’ about margarine, they’ll go do the same.

Even though it may seem that I am 100% sold on the flat earth model, I am not yet fully there.  I log this journey only so that I can be sure I’m properly thinking it through and leaving a record for others to follow.  It is very inconvenient to try to explain all this when I meet people so I am hopeful that this post will be a good resource not only for myself but for others.

Consider a flat earth.

What you believe does matter.

The Scriptures

I have included Strong’s definition links for words that seem most critical for this study. You can and should, of course, go and do your own research because let God be true and all men liars, remember.

Immovable Earth

  •  Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30)
  • The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, [wherewith] he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. (Psalm 93:1)
  • Say among the heathen [that] the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously. (Psalm 96:10)

Foundation/Foundations of the Earth

  • And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.(2 Samuel 22:16)
  • Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils. (Psalms 18:15)
  • Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands. (Psalm 102:25)
  • When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:  When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth (Proverbs 8:27-29)
  • Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)
  • Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. (2 Samuel 22:8)
  • They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. (Psalm 82:5)
  • Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; (Job 38:4-6)
  • [Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever. (Psalm 104:5)

Pillars

  • He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them. (1 Samuel 2:8)
  • Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. (Job 9:6)

Four Corners of the Earth

  • And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)
  • Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. (Ezekiel 7:2)
  • And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (Revelation 7:1)

Ends of the Earth

  •  [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth (Deuteronomy 13:7)

Solid Dome Firmament Canopy

  • And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Genesis 1:6-8)
  • And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. (Ezekiel 1:26)
  • Hast thou with him spread out the sky, [which is] strong, [and] as a molten looking glass? (Job 37:18)
  • Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. (2 Samuel 22:8)

Sun and Moon Travel Around the Earth (geocentric)

  • Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. (Psalm 19:4-6) (Read expanded comments on this scripture here)
  • The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. (Ecclesiastes 1:5)
  • Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. (Joshua 10:12-13)
  • The sun [and] moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, [and] at the shining of thy glittering spear. (Habakkuk 3:11)

Disc/Circle versus Globe/Ball

  • Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. (Psalm 19:4-6)
  • Thus [were] the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof [was] great. 11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: (Daniel 4:10-11)
  • [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in (Isaiah 40:22)
  • Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them (Matthew 4:8)
  • To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy [endureth] for ever. (Psalms 136:6)
  • Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)

The Visible Second Coming of Jesus

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Before considering the flat earth model, I used to struggle with several scriptures that speak clearly of the second coming of Christ.  When I read the Word of God it seemed clear that I, and all the inhabitants of the earth would see, with our own eyes, the return of Jesus.  Yet, how is this possible if Jesus shows up in China and I’m on the top of the basketball in North America?  I resolved that Jesus would have to rely on man’s technology (ie. TV, internet streaming, etc) in order for every eye to see… which never quite sat well with a mortal man such as I…  The following scriptures either straight-up tell us that we will see Him with our eyes, or infer it:

  • And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)
  • Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
  • For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:27)
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)
  • Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:64)
  • And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13-26-27)
  • And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:62)
  • Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Luke 21: 26-27)
  • For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

I look forward to any comments, additions, revelations to add to this post.

 

 

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